tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post9005314350730051526..comments2023-12-31T05:01:58.031-06:00Comments on Young Stranger: "Are Boys More Important Than Girls?"John Gustav-Wrathallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-8700505973046032932007-07-15T12:46:00.000-05:002007-07-15T12:46:00.000-05:00I have been following this thread with interest, t...I have been following this thread with interest, though I have little to contribute, as I am not a Mormon and know little of women's experience in the LDS Church. But I agree with John and Geckoman: listening is a great place to start. That is what I am doing here, and I appreciate your willingness to share.Knight of Nothinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00258071389769083850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-90219884204099617262007-07-15T08:09:00.000-05:002007-07-15T08:09:00.000-05:00"A starting point would be listening."In other wor...<I>"A starting point would be listening."</I><BR/><BR/>In other words, a starting point would be to make ourselves passive, make ourselves servants who put others before ourselves. I couldn't agree more!<BR/><BR/><I>"some women are part of the cycle of limiting YW activities"</I><BR/><BR/>I suspect that one of the unfortunate consequences of severely limiting people's opportunities for leadership is that when they <I>do</I> finally get a little authority, they feel the only way they can exercise it is by limiting others' choices and opportunities.<BR/><BR/><I>Let us not forget or minimize the female leadership roles practiced by women in the home or in ward, stake or general callings.</I><BR/><BR/>No, we should not minimize this at all. I have seen this on both the Mormon and Protestant sides of the fence. Unlike in Protestant churches, Mormon women do stand in the pulpit as preachers and teachers, and generally because of the lay leadership structure of Mormon congregations tend to play a <I>much more active role</I> in the life of the church. I do believe that this contributes to a much more vibrant sense of faith among Mormon women, and I can even see how someone who converts to the Church might feel "liberated" in terms of their spiritual life. So I don't think the situation is as universally bad as Toscano paints it.<BR/><BR/>True, in most Protestant churches in America today, women <I>can</I> be ordained to the priesthood. But in the Protestant model, ordination is only for the few, and everybody except the ordained is banned from the pulpit. I managed to convince our liberal UCC congregation to adopt a "lay preaching" ministry, after a two-year-long battle. At first, most members thought it was some wild-eyed, revolutionary, insane concept. "You can't let ordinary people preach? What might they say???"<BR/><BR/>I argued that the traditional Protestant model encouraged the Protestant laity to view faith as a spectator sport, as something their pastors do <I>for them.</I> Once our congregation opened itself up to having ordinary people get up and preach sermons, they began to realize how right I had been. I'd like to take the credit for this "innovation," but of course, I stole it from the Mormon Church!<BR/><BR/>I also feel that we can't underestimate the impact of private spiritual devotions. There is a tremendous emphasis in the LDS Church on encouraging individual members, each and every one, male and female, to study the scriptures and pray every day, to establish a personal relationship with God, to listen to and cultivate the gift of the Holy Spirit. I see evidence that this too has an empowering and uplifting impact on Mormon women as well as Mormon men. Toscano acknowledges that the LDS Church has done a better job recently of placing before us images of women as scholars of the scriptures and of gospel doctrines.<BR/><BR/>This is all an excellent start, but I think, as I said, in an earthly Church which more truly reflects the order of the Heavens, we might go further than that... Perhaps we simply aren't ready yet for the next step.John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-35332977594441385222007-07-15T01:19:00.000-05:002007-07-15T01:19:00.000-05:00Let us not forget or minimize the female leadershi...Let us not forget or minimize the female leadership roles practiced by women in the home or in ward, stake or general callings. While this is not viewed as sufficient in scope by some, it does constitute a powerful grassroots influence upon the church and the rising generation.<BR/><BR/>I guess I am unaware of what Abe is describing as a rising prevalence of 'men-bashing' from the pulpit. I've not observed this. I think we have been appropriately chided at times in General Conference, because the attitudes and behaviors of some LDS men are worthy of criticism. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps we should discuss our cultural behaviors to women more at length, both the positive and the negative.<BR/><BR/>I agree with Abe about how some women are part of the cycle of limiting YW activities and opportunities to marriage, home and family. My girls hated this.<BR/><BR/>I think the key question to ponder and debate is how can we as men, husbands and fathers (ie, leaders!) help promote positve change and growth towards an ideal, whatever that is. A starting point would be listening.GeckoManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846438788253129899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-54784238333803001542007-07-14T23:42:00.000-05:002007-07-14T23:42:00.000-05:00What a great post! That was really interesting. I ...What a great post! That was really interesting. I have lot to think about now...elbowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07742457647216774548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-8715328001887115862007-07-14T14:47:00.000-05:002007-07-14T14:47:00.000-05:00It bears pointing out that Toscano was addressing ...It bears pointing out that Toscano was addressing much larger questions than whether we let young women play football or go skeet shooting. She believes that a much more fundamental psychic or spiritual harm is perpetrated when women see images of God that are exclusively male, and when they live in a church structure where only males hold positions of authority.<BR/><BR/>The orthodox position is, as you say, simply that "leadership" is not a role that is superior to "nurture," just a different role.<BR/><BR/>I believe two (possibly contradictory) things in this regard. First, I do believe that the order of the Heavens involves women as creators and wielders of priesthood <I>as well as</I> bearers and nurturers of (spirit) children, and that if the earthly order truly reflected the Heavens, then we would see a similar pattern in the Church here below.<BR/><BR/>Second, I also believe that a key to understanding the nature of priesthood is D&C 121, which builds on the various statements of Christ to the effect that he/she is a true leader who is least of all; not the one who commands but the one who serves. Is it possible that women in the Church, by giving unstinting service within an authority structure in which they are always <I>by definition</I> servants, not leaders, that women are tapping into the true sources of priesthood power more effectively than men?<BR/><BR/>Toscano is aware of this kind of theological argument, but she doesn't like it -- at least not as an argument for why women don't "need" to hold the priesthood in this life. I'm not sure what to think of it myself. After all, within any social structure, order and leadership is necessary, and women are just as capable of leading as they are of serving. Why shouldn't they do both, just as men do both (both lead and serve)?<BR/><BR/>At the same time, I believe -- and this was the point of my essay -- that whether we do or not hold positions of leadership, if we are able to have our eyes opened to larger, invisible realities, we may gradually learn that we don't need to, that the only real kind of authority is service anyway...<BR/><BR/>This feels contradictory in some ways, and maybe a cop out, but it feels so right to me.John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-63648989295908338062007-07-14T07:21:00.000-05:002007-07-14T07:21:00.000-05:00We need to stand up and publicly endorse the incre...<I>We need to stand up and publicly endorse the increasing pronoucements from General Conference and other pulpits that strengthen and defend the rights of women.</I><BR/><BR/>I certainly agree that women are just as important in the eyes of God as men are. And, I agree that men and women are equal, but with different roles in life (and none of those roles are more important than the others, they are just different).<BR/><BR/>But I tire of the 'men bashing' that is becoming so prevalent from the pulpit. Surely we can come up with a better way to lift up women without tearing down men.<BR/><BR/>Yes, there are men in the church who are jerks, plain and simple. But, you know what? There are women jerks too. And, we shouldn't judge an entire gender based on the actions of a few.<BR/><BR/>I also don't agree that much of the problem lies with men. One of my responsibilities in the BIshopric is the YM/YW program. Many of our YW look at the types of activities the boys are engaged in and lament that they wish they could do those things too. I always tell them that there is no reason why they can't and that they should talk to their YW leaders. But, it seems like the YW leaders always seem to talk them out of it in the end. So, it's not just men pushing women down; but, it's also other women pulling them down - telling them what their place is as women in the church (women don't play football or go skeet shooting; they are supposed to sit around and make frilly things and talk about going to the Temple one day).Abelard Enigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166049686152203530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-8072240296088893642007-07-13T14:19:00.000-05:002007-07-13T14:19:00.000-05:00As a father of three wonderful grown daughters, I ...As a father of three wonderful grown daughters, I am continually concerned about how they are treated by men, particularily in the church. My daughters love to tell stories about how they sometimes bump up against naive or arrogant LDS "priesthood holders" at BYU who project holier-than-thou patriarchal superiority. Fortunately, they relish the opportunity to set these poor young misguided brothers straight. But what about the other fair daughters of Zion, who may be less adept at deflecting bigotry or combatting discrimination? <BR/><BR/>I like your idea, John, that even if one woman bears the brunt of sexism, it is worth our continuing effort to help change provincial and judgemental attitudes unfortunately present from 19th century Mormonism. And this extends to not just sisters, but to even the 'least of saints,' as you are prone to define yourself.<BR/><BR/>I would like to expand on two points of remedy. First is with us boys, since much of the problem starts with us. We need to stand up and publicly endorse the increasing pronoucements from General Conference and other pulpits that strengthen and defend the rights of women. And we should encourage dialogue in our quorums and with our friends about the diverse roles of women and how we can better support our sisters in contemporary settings.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, I think we should encourage the training of girls and women to humbly challenge the status quo of cultural paradigms that result in subtle put downs of women's importance or ability to lead. Many such paradigms are ingrained and unconscious and we just don't think about implied messages and downstream effects. My oldest daughter is good at pointing these out, and I have to sometimes shake my head, surprised at my own cluelessness.GeckoManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846438788253129899noreply@blogger.com