tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post7557964998175448007..comments2023-12-31T05:01:58.031-06:00Comments on Young Stranger: Claiming the Words to Describe OurselvesJohn Gustav-Wrathallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-59725350281903271862010-07-08T10:59:50.095-05:002010-07-08T10:59:50.095-05:00MHH - by the way, I did comment that "places ...MHH - by the way, I did comment that "places like this needed to exist -- whatever their flaws and foibles."<br /><br />I have been thinking about posting later about my experience in the Finnish LDS ward we attended. It was a bit sad, because there was once a thriving membership there -- enough that they got their own ward house. But it has now dwindled to a branch, partly because the Church has cut its missionary force in Finland to about half of what it was 40 years ago. I suspect the leadership in Salt Lake made a strategic decision that the Church wasn't growing fast enough in Finland, so they sent the missionaries to other, faster growing regions. That's my guess... And if I'm right, I suppose I understand the logic, but it's made it difficult for the Finnish Saints. Maybe membership would have declined anyway because of disconnects between American LDS and Finnish culture. Maybe overly centralized approaches in the past have made it difficult for Finns to claim LDS faith as their own, rather than as a Utah American import... I don't know...<br /><br />But, needless to say, I won't disagree with you that the whole question of finding authentic ways to express oneself and find answers to pressing problems cuts both ways -- be it in matters of faith or in matters of sexual orientation. I hope for that as much for Finnish LDS as I do for the Finnish GLBT community.John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-27816966718740468412010-07-08T10:43:09.942-05:002010-07-08T10:43:09.942-05:00Mohohawaii - Well, yes.
At the LDS Ward we went t...Mohohawaii - Well, yes.<br /><br />At the LDS Ward we went to in Finland, there was a sister who approached my dad. She was absolutely insistent that she needed his help with something. The something she needed help with was... She wanted my dad to call George Soros, to ask if he would consider underwriting a Miss America Pageant to be held in Rouvaniemi, Finland, hosted by Santa Claus. My dad tried to dissuade her, but she insisted until my dad, gentle soul that he is, obliged her by calling George Soros and leaving a message with his secretary.<br /><br />Yes, every institution has its "characters."<br /><br />I plan to post a few pictures and tell another story or two in the next couple days...John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-89138450074214633822010-07-08T10:01:13.927-05:002010-07-08T10:01:13.927-05:00I like the analogy between gay bars and LDS wards....I like the analogy between gay bars and LDS wards. Both are portable American experiences. Both are filled with a recognizable cast of stereotypes, including, among others, the socially awkward and the sexually hopeless. Both are in serious need of a musical makeover.<br /><br />Since reading your post I've been musing over why it's okay to say mean but true things about the social dynamics of a gay bar but absolutely not okay to say these same things about an LDS ward. Where's your equally trenchant description of the trolls and hags of Mormondom? I know we might disagree on this point, but I fail to see an ounce of superiority in the LDS ward as a social institution over a gay bar. Both can be lifelines in the right circumstances. Both can reinforce various kinds of social pathology. Both, it seems to me, deserve a measure of respect.<br /><br />P.S. Welcome back. Can't wait to read more about your trip.MoHoHawaiihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15086670779804942122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-62662454119687666212010-07-07T17:38:28.658-05:002010-07-07T17:38:28.658-05:00I actually think that sounds like it would be a fu...I actually think that sounds like it would be a fun learning experience.<br /><br />(I can't believe I just wrote that...)Beckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06159223254071653666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-35459529754083315282010-07-07T17:07:52.471-05:002010-07-07T17:07:52.471-05:00Beck - I think you've hit the nail right on th...Beck - I think you've hit the nail right on the head. I think I went between the extremes of being totally alienated from the gay subculture, to totally embracing it, to now feeling like I can see value in some of the ways that institutions like gay bars have both helped the gay community but also hold it back in some significant ways. But I guess that is true of all institutions.<br /><br />If you ever wanted to go on an anthropological tour of gay bars, I would love to be your guide!John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-1415275936816638202010-07-07T16:20:22.369-05:002010-07-07T16:20:22.369-05:00So much of what you describe in this post about th...So much of what you describe in this post about the "gay culture" be it in America or Finland, seems foreign and strange and "nothing to do with me", yet somehow if I'm gay (or at least bi) then there is the underlining feeling that I should stake some claim into the expression of being "gay", buying into the commercialized pre-packaged deal. <br /><br />And yet, in my world, I can't... either because I'm afraid to, or because I don't want to, or maybe a little bit of both.<br /><br />Thus, the dilemma of how to "fit in" and what words to use to describe what "it" is that I'm feeling as I'm attracted to men.<br /><br />I think I would be comfortable enough to overcome my fears and insecurities of entering a gay bar if someone like you were there holding me through the process of trying to understand this "package" that comes with being gay, but I don't see it happening otherwise. Does that make me homophobic? How does one that is just as attracted to men as others are, "claim the words to describe oneself"?Beckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06159223254071653666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-63996450798719758472010-07-07T12:28:47.252-05:002010-07-07T12:28:47.252-05:00JonJon - It's super nice to be missed!
Yes, I...JonJon - It's super nice to be missed!<br /><br />Yes, I think that's what I took away from this, thinking it through. This isn't a Finnish problem or an American problem. Though I wonder if in countries and cultures where gay people are just beginning to come out (and are looking to the American gay rights movement as an example), there isn't a temptation to import American solutions.<br /><br />I think the American gay rights movement has been heavily influenced by sexual liberation ideology. Thus, "foam parties."<br /><br />But we all have the right to decide what we really value, and how we define ourselves in relation to those values. So it's good for gay people everywhere to decide whether we're satisfied with the prepackaged, commercialized answers to the question, "What does it mean to be gay?"John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-21057085755484450362010-07-07T12:06:21.479-05:002010-07-07T12:06:21.479-05:00Man, I've missed your posts. That's the d...Man, I've missed your posts. That's the difficult part, taking words and identities and experiences and making them our own. Redefining them instead of letting them define us. I think that's something not just the Finns need to do.JonJonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14158807819966424747noreply@blogger.com