tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post1895230927222140602..comments2023-12-31T05:01:58.031-06:00Comments on Young Stranger: Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Wife (or Husband)John Gustav-Wrathallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-11079538831047548222012-11-05T09:55:03.721-06:002012-11-05T09:55:03.721-06:00Anonymous - I just emailed one of the conference o...Anonymous - I just emailed one of the conference organizers, and suggested a "wives" panel for future conferences.John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-34216307214954509282012-11-05T08:04:26.333-06:002012-11-05T08:04:26.333-06:00Larry - hope to see you at a future conference!Larry - hope to see you at a future conference!John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-37796312189251970802012-11-05T08:03:31.153-06:002012-11-05T08:03:31.153-06:00Bravone - I don't think I could express my gra...Bravone - I don't think I could express my gratitude and love toward you better than I already have. It was so great seeing you yesterday at the Interfaith Service.John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-76872634391647745092012-11-05T08:01:54.030-06:002012-11-05T08:01:54.030-06:00blj1224 (Jay's mom): Jay is a pretty awesome g...blj1224 (Jay's mom): Jay is a pretty awesome guy! I've loved him and his voice as a blogger for many years. He's doing fantastic work right now on with the Far Between web site. He was a superb moderator. The panel could not have been a success without him!John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-602708068213471762012-11-05T07:57:48.275-06:002012-11-05T07:57:48.275-06:00Anonymous: All I can say is, first of all, I know ...Anonymous: All I can say is, first of all, I know Josh and Steve would not only not have objected to the sharing of your experience on the panel, but they would have welcomed it. In a way I wish you had been there, because your telling of your story is so powerful and articulate.<br /><br />On that note... My one GREAT regret about this panel was that it was all men. I'm sure the dynamics of the panel would have been very different if the experience of straight wives had been included. In fact, I think that's a great idea for a panel at a future conference... You or someone equally articulate sharing on a panel with Lolly Weed, or someone in a similar position to her.<br /><br />I will point out that our panel did include a gay man (Craig Mangum) who had been married to a woman and ultimately had to end that relationship. So that experience wasn't absent on the panel. Unfortunately, his ex-wife has not been as understanding toward him as you were toward your spouse, and we heard from him about some of the terrible heartbreak of being separated from his children and experiencing very cruel treatment by his wife and other Church members. <br /><br />One of the main keynote speakers, Joseph Broom, spoke in some depth about the heartbreak experienced in his "mixed-orientation" marriage. You can read his talk <a href="http://beyond-the-closet-door.blogspot.com/2012/11/circling-wagons-my-story-and-why-i.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> if you're so inclined. There were numerous other presenters, such as Allen Miller, who addressed this problem as well in a variety of ways.<br /><br />One concern I have is that ultimately, even though you were a straight woman married to a gay man, the Weeds experience may completely different from yours. <br /><br />Certainly what you've been through is similar to the experience of the majority of mixed-orientation married couples. But each individual is unique. Even mixed orientation couples whose marriages end each have very different paths leading to divorce and following from the aftermath of that.<br /><br />I unkind and unfair to issue absolute predictions (as if we have a crystal ball and know the future) that the Weeds' marriage will end in disaster and tragedy. Let's let them work this out for themselves.<br /><br />Also, it is unproductive and unfair to silence the Weeds and exclude them from the discussion. Let's include them (or stories similar to theirs), but also include you (or stories similar to yours). The way forward is not censorship or judgment/condemnation. The way forward is bringing ALL the voices to the table and letting people decide for themselves.John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-76083444531546036482012-11-05T07:39:00.007-06:002012-11-05T07:39:00.007-06:00Luis: I wish you had come and introduced yourself!...Luis: I wish you <i>had</i> come and introduced yourself! One of the things that was so amazing to me about the conference were all the discussions and hugs in between sessions. Thank you for accepting my Facebook friend request. I hope we will meet at a future conference.John Gustav-Wrathallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03557940681381951271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-91000029474483611962012-11-04T18:24:36.474-06:002012-11-04T18:24:36.474-06:00I'm so glad it turned out so well! I so wish I...I'm so glad it turned out so well! I so wish I could have attended. John, thank you so much for this touching summary of the feelings between you Brethren & the general spirit of the conference. Although not knowing Jay as well as I'd like too, I'm sure he did a sincere & wonderful job! Steve, I'm so very proud of you! You are an amazing man, husband, father, son & friend! I'm so grateful to call you friend.... Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064764497625438826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-24612943788884341832012-11-04T17:37:56.017-06:002012-11-04T17:37:56.017-06:00Thank you John for describing the fellowship and l...Thank you John for describing the fellowship and love I too felt. It was an amazing conference where differences were discussed in very civil discourse. At the end of the day, we are all God's children, worthy of love and acceptance. I loved spending time with you and deepening our friendship. <br /><br />Jay's mom, He did a terrific job of setting the tone. I knew he would. He did you and our entire community proud. <br /><br />Much love,<br />SteveBravonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02762204502534599107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-70367838121261802452012-11-04T12:28:27.756-06:002012-11-04T12:28:27.756-06:00I'm Jay's mom, and an active Mormon. I...I'm Jay's mom, and an active Mormon. I'm very proud of Jay and of all of you who are such courageous and noble pioneers. I love you all, and I stand with you in this very worthy effort to promote understanding, healing and unconditional love. <br />blj1224https://www.blogger.com/profile/15696404108842065078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-25844751813451090472012-11-04T12:17:50.306-06:002012-11-04T12:17:50.306-06:00My perspective is a bit different. I am a str8 wif...My perspective is a bit different. I am a str8 wife. The man who took me to the Oakland temple and fathered our three children tearfully told me he was gay shortly after our 27th wedding anniversary. That was almost fifteen years and several lifetimes ago for him, for me, for our adult children. I am an avid supporter of the repeal of DOMA. I fought so hard for the defeat of Prop. 8. I understand the choice to include Mr. Weed in the Conference. The person who seems to continue to be left out of this discussion is his wife. I have watched her body language. I have seen her responses, albeit minimal compared to his. I keep seeing that they describe their marriage as "successful". Clearly, their perception is their reality in this case because there is no basis for comparison. The issues of sexual intimacy and his orientation (bi or gay) seem to be fodder for speculation. Here's the thing, sex isn't the only thing in a marriage. That isn't the issue. Intimacy is. I have worked with str8 spouses on a number of forums for more than a decade. In that time I have come in contact with hundreds of str8 wives and str8 husbands. From the perspective of a str8 spouse, only another str8 wife can understand what being married to a man who is not heterosexual can do to one's self esteem. It wasn't until I gave myself permission to become intimate with a str8 man that I learned about The Difference. It was stunning. I learned what I had been missing for three decades. I learned what my husband had been missing for his adult life. I learned that neither of us could offer that to the other, ever, because it required being completely vulnerable at the most basic level two humans can share. It was that experience that changed everything in my grieving process as the marriage I believed I had died. <br />I loved him enough to want that same thing for him. He deserved it.<br />Mr. and Mrs. Weed deserve this gift to each other.<br />Sometimes we must love each other enough to say "enough".<br />They are doing their children no favor.<br /><br /><br />There is something so schizophrenic about this experience. They did what the did because they believed it to be the right thing. The LDS Church continues to have a way of marginalizing women. As a result, all an unsuspecting sweet sister has to hear are phrases like "the priesthood says" or "The Lord told me" or "I'm inspired to tell you that" and she is often conditioned to acquiesce. Been there, done that. I loved my husband, the person I believed him to be, the person he wanted me to believe he was. He loved me, not in the way a str8 man can love a woman, but in the only way he knew how; the way society and movies and magazines told him a man "should" love a woman. I wanted him to be happy. I prayed to die in my sleep every night for months. Alas, his courage, his truth becoming my truth was the best-worst thing that has ever happened to me. It was the most precious gift he ever gave me.<br /><br />Paraphrasing Emily Pearson, we continue to allow our daughters to be sacrificed at the altar. <br /><br />Sister Weed will be me one day. The clock is ticking. I'm so sorry for all of them, truly I am.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2018387523779914474.post-24463635669532432852012-11-04T11:15:12.011-06:002012-11-04T11:15:12.011-06:00Excellent post. I love how you said:
"Barrie...Excellent post. I love how you said:<br /><br />"Barrier after barrier dropped, like so many scales. I experienced a full, unconstrained feeling of brotherhood with these other men....None of our stories, none of the personal answers we had found should or could or would be used as fodder for a political or religious agenda."<br /><br />John, I meant to come introduce myself to you at some point throughout yesterday, and wasn't able to get a clear chance. <br /><br />I have much love, esteem, and admiration for you. You're so full of love and compassion which is evident. THank you for being you.Luishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01071799950189009723noreply@blogger.com